Joey Noel Turn Key Rental Buddies Interview – Jeep Wranglers, Maxing out Fannie Mae Loans, Helocs, re-inspections, dating two property management companies at the same time, and what to be aware of when on BiggerPockets
Tarl Yarber has been investing in real estate for the past 11 years and is the owner of Fixated Real Estate LLC and specializes in systemized high volume fix and flips in multiple states. Between 2014 and 2016, Tarl and his team flipped over $25 Million in single family homes with rehab budgets between $30k-$250k per house.
1) How much simple passive Cashflow are you making today and how are you doing it?
Rentals with net monthly at 1235/m and a third in rehab for another 415/m once done. We also have tied up a 4plex that should net apprx $1625/m net cash flow after we remodel and get new tenants.Most of what we do is large volume rehabs for this area, our systems free up a ton of time and help bring in the cash.
2) What is your Han Solo moment – Han Solo and his buddy Chewbacca from Star Wars were cruising around the galaxy as lowlife smugglers but then cross paths with Luke and Leia and his life took a pivot point. Describe the resistance that was the catalyst for change. Did you “burn the boats” or did you let it happen naturally – was there an internal (you decided to make a change on own – what was thought process?) or external (you got fired) trigger?
11 years ago at a real estate wealth expo. Extreme changes needed in my life. I did the opposite of everything I was on track for and went a completely different way in life. Ill explain on show if needed
3) Worst life/business moment what did you do after? Lesson learned?
Business partnership failed, I felt utterly betrayed and destroyed. I learned to always get things in writing, to always be the better person and do whats right in a deal at all times. More lessons as well.
4) A mark of a high performer is to put your ego aside and accept the help of others and mastermind. 2 week experiment and 6 month project? (90-180 day goal) Perhaps people can help you out? Any secret habit to share?
5) What is your simple passive Cashflow number? Now imagine you had 2x that amount… Describe your ideal day, detailed routine, and what projects you are working on.
$1mil a month
6) Something that you have recently or thought about “burning your cash” on for time savings or an improvement in quantity of life.
Lots and lots of VA’s. And a new house with a sauna, meditation room, gym, land, etc. Sanctuary. Plus a dive boat that is capable of long trips.
7) Tony Robbins identifies two large concepts that we are continually struggling to gain perfection at: #1-Art of Fulfillment and #2-Science of Achievement. If you died tomorrow and this was your final words of wisdom, what is your secret to the “Science of Achievement?” And “Art of Fulfillment?” How you do contribute back?
Secret to achievement: lots of objective self-analyzation and taking full responsibility for your life and how you build it and react to the challenges that arise during it
I love all emergency medicine, teaching real estate, ski patrol big time
8) Anything we missed and contact info if you would like anyone to get a hold of you. URL?
Connie discusses grinding through Corporate America and how she dabbled in real estate. Then finding cashflow rentals and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Why financial advisors are from the evil Empire, why you may not want to just invest in real estate – even though its the best;)
Erica tells her story of how she was eating lunch and walked from the job to eventually build a thriving coaching business.
11 Not So Obvious 1031 Exchange Strategies
My promise to my readers: No click bait here on SimplePassiveCashflow.com – all the tips will be provided on the SAME page, so relax! For real estate investors at some point, you are going to need to do a 1031 exchange. Having just done two of them, I wanted to share my experience before I forget it (since its sort of a pain in the butt and people forget painful things). Hopefully, it will help you create a game plan going in.
So no investor is left behind, a 1031 exchange is a way to defer your capital gains from a sale of real property. This is one of the advantages of real estate as compared to stocks or other assets. I am no lawyer or CPA, but basically, you have 180 days from the sale of your first/subject property to exchange into “like kind” investments using the proceeds (sale price minus existing mortgage and sales costs). This transaction needs to be done via an intermediary/custodian who sets up an escrow to create the paper trail for your upcoming taxes. This process is something you don’t want to DIY because if you screw up, you are going have to pay taxes on the proceeds, plus all that depreciation (recapture) you benefited from. Oh and one more kicker… once you sell the subject property you have 45 days to create a list that identifies all potential replacement properties, but more on that in a bit.
So now that the newbies have caught up there are the tips:
1) Have properties ready to go: This means having a purchase and sale agreement signed and having completed the negotiation before the subject property (the home you are exchanging/selling) closes. As the close date for the sale of your subject property gets closer (~2 weeks) and especially if it’s a slam-dunk transaction (i.e., the buyer is bringing cash to close/no financing), you might want to take the risk and execute those purchase and sale contracts sooner. Note that this is a bit shady to your agent because if complications do arise then you will have to cancel your contract and no one will like you L
2) Don’t screw around. Get your inspections done as a soon as possible. Knowing if you are going to move forward or abort the purchase of a property is super important. Remember other than the 180 day time limit the other properties on you 45-day list could be bought by other investors.
3) Work with a real estate attorney who has experience with a 1031 Exchange: Policies regarding 1031s will vary from year to year with changes in the Tax Code. Once you sell your property, you will also need someone to hold your funds in escrow, because you are not able to take possession of the funds. If you do take possession of the funds from the sale of your property, the 1031 exchange won’t work anymore. But good thing you found that lawyer that will do this all full service for you.
Rumor has it that the silly escrow rule was created when some guy took the proceeds from the sale of his property to Las Vegas and blew all his money on rocks and hookers. After that, the Government was like, “These people are idiots, we can’t let this happen.” So that guy ruined it for everyone, and now we have to all follow this arduous process.
Pick that lawyer and have all of the contractual details worked out before the subject property goes under contract to sell. Expect to pay $500-$1200 plus additional fees for each property you acquire. Talk to your lawyer and get educated about all the rules, such as the 200% rule, 45-day list, 180-day rule, what is eligible to write off, and get them to sign off on your plan. Remember these guys know how to do 1031s, and it’s ultimately your job to get the big picture right. That’s why you’re the boss.
4) The All-Important 45-Day Rule: As mentioned earlier you need to create a list of potential properties that you can acquire before the 45th day after the sale of your subject property. The rules change on these 1031s all the time (see disclaimer below) but I was only able to identify up to 200% of the subject property’s value which for me was eight properties for $800k, since the subject property sold for about $400k. (I don’t know where this rule came from, but it was probably conceived by Vegas, hookers, and rocks) What I would do about 10 days prior to the deadline of your 45-day list, send out an email blast to all your agents, turnkey providers, long lost wholesalers (you know the folks you exchange info and you never hear from again like an ex-college classmate) and basically do a roll call for all properties. This is a time to call (not email/text) to explain your situation. Set broad constraints, and specify that you need X properties from each provider that you will buy X of them. This will let the sellers know that you are serious, and they may move mountains for you and bump you up in the priority line. This may also eliminate the silly negotiation process and get you the best pricing. The beauty of doing this is that you are creating a competitive bid format and will ultimately fill up your 45-day-list with the best candidates.
5) Have a Backup Plan: When soliciting for your 45-day-list, you may also want to ask for properties that aren’t ready to be sold yet but “are in the pipeline.” For example, these are the properties that have just been picked up by the seller from an auction or those where a wholesaler is in discussion with the first seller, and the rehab has not begun. Fast forward a couple months, and suppose a few properties on your 45-day-list fall through due to a bad inspection, you are going to need to go back to your list and if you had properties that were ready to be sold at that time of the 45-day-list creation, a lot of them will be sold by then. In summary, this is where adding in the sleeper picks or prospects makes building your list complicated. You need to really meditate with a “Simple Passive Cashflow Latte” and think of every angle.
6) Your 1031 facilitator, gets paid when you do a 1031 exchange. Your lender gets paid when you refinance. Your Bank gets paid when you set up a HELOC. Each are a tool and every situation is unique. Is a 1031 really your best option? Sorry if this point is a bit late in the conversation, but I am assuming you are reading this article before showing up to the Toga Party with your loin cloth.
7) Do your own research on a “Reverse 1031 exchange”. It’s a bit more expensive but might be the right tool for the job, however, it is not for the situation where you are trading one property for many. Personally, I think it’s a tool for a really unique situation and it’s not worth discussing, but I’m sure a Lawyer will want to tell you all about it at their $300/per hour billable rate.
8) Get Everyone on the Same Page: Have a good old-fashioned, conference call to get your lender and 1031 facilitator on the same page. Isn’t it great to be the leader of a conference call for something meaningful this time? Funny Video. But what is not funny is getting that call from the lender who uses the underwriter as an excuse for why you can’t get a loan a couple weeks before the close. That phone call is totally avoidable with proper communication upfront to ensure you can qualify for the loans with the proper debt to income (DTI) requirements and Cash Reserves. As of June 2016, you need six months of PITI for your first four loans, but loans #4-10 need six months for ALL properties. When I was trying to close loan #10, I needed about $33,000 dollars of cash reserves just sitting there ($550x6x10). This makes an optimizer like myself really irritated. Luckily you can use ~100% of 401k or Roth accounts. Just a last month they allowed you to only count 70% so you can see how that rules change. Also in terms of cash reserves, make sure you have consulted with your lender about the required amount of time you need to season the funds in your bank account.
Also depending on your 1031 facilitator, you might be able to talk them into paying the appraisal fees out of the 1031 funds instead of out of pocket. I got my lender to reverse the charges and bill the appraisal fee at closing. Unfortunately, the home inspector will likely want to be paid via cold hard cash because he (Let’s be honest…it’s always a guy) is running a good old-fashioned cash business. Just kidding, he takes credit card too. Did I mention that you should relax through this 1031 ordeal? Now, is the time for yourself to enjoy an Old-Fashion or other alcoholic beverage, you are almost done.
9) Use It Or Lose It: As you are getting to the end of your 1031 timeline and utilizing most of the 1031 funds, you are going to have to decide to use it all or leave some money unutilized. Typically you will have to pay taxes on the remaining (this remaining is called “the boot”). You are going to be faced with decisions to pick up properties that are less than desirable or walk from the deal (and pay the taxes on the unutilized funds). Case in point, say the last property needs $30K to close the deal but the seller is dragging their feet with final punch list repairs that came from the inspection. The seller is refusing to replace the roof because the roof is 15 years old and has a few good years left. Therefore, the seller does not want to pay $10K to fix it per your request. Let’s do the math, if you walk from the deal you pay ~25% of the $30k due to tax implications of not utilizing the funds and pay the government almost $8k. Armed with this information, it would be logical to suggest that the seller pays half of the roof costs ($5k) as it is a good business decision for you to make this concession and not pay the taxes on the boot (5K<8K). This is a simple example, but this is how the decision needs to be analyzed. Also, keep in mind, information is power. If the seller knew that you were in the late stages of your 1031 and you did not have any other potential 1031 properties to go after on your 45-day-list or nearing the 180-day deadline you would be at their mercy. But that’s negotiation, which can be a fancy 52-card game of BS.
10) Just take it day by day: It is not easy, but it’s simple…LOL. This is where you are glad you picked an investor focused lender who has done these things before instead of the neighborhood big bank. Again make sure you keep the line of communication open with your lender (every few days) to avoid large surprises.
11) A 1031 Exchange is Not for Beginners: If you have not purchased a rental property before I would try to buy one outside of a 1031 to test the agent, lender, market, and especially yourself. The 1031 is going to require you to have many plates spinning at once. It is best to first figure out the nuances with a simple one-off transaction.
Which property class or property value range would be best to put on the buying list?
This is ultimately up to your investing strategy and criteria. For me to tell you what is the best is irresponsible and against what I believe, because you should understand the macro (not micro) concepts for yourself and make your own best individual strategy. With that disclaimer out of the way, I originally went (my personal strategy changes over time) after B/B+ properties that rented for at least $1000 per month and had at least 3 bed and 2 bath. This strategy evolves as my portfolio grows. #1stWorldInvestorProblems. Some things to think of when finding your strategy/criteria include:
- Although I fully intend to hold on to these properties indefinitely for cashflow, I recognize that things change, and perhaps I might want to trade in one “goose that lays the golden egg” for two or three “geese that lay the golden egg” or one “big ass goose that yea you get the point.” To say, “My properties are generating cashflow” is a fallacy. Instead, you have to evaluate what the numbers say on the bottom of the spreadsheet and compare the two situations you are evaluating. You should always be making moves to optimize your return, assuming it warrants the transaction costs.
- I was using Fannie Mae loans, which are those sweet government subsidized 30-year fixed loans. At the time of this writing (5/2016) the most one person can have is 10 to their name (If you are smart also 10 in your married partner’s name too). Your plan might be to only get one or two homes and sail off into the sunset, but your plan might change and you have to change your plan for the “if” in life. To acquire a conventional Fannie/Freddie non-owner occupied property requires 20-25% down payment. There are also lender costs, which I typically estimate at $5000 +/- $1000. Parts of the lender costs are variable, such as an origination loan (basically it’s their fee to have to deal with you and headaches you cause them). Origination fees are typically a certain percentage (~1%) of the final loan, but the rate varies from lender to lender, so this is something you are comparing. Other parts of the lender costs are fixed costs such as inspection costs, credit reports, and appraisal fees. It is these fixed costs that are the same whether you buy a $40K property or a $140K property. This is one reason I personally went after a more expensive property.
- By buying 50K properties that rent for $800 you’re like “Hey that’s awesome that’s a 1.6+% Rent to Value Ratio”. But I suggest reading my article about the nuances of the RV Ratio and property classes. I promise you there is a graph and I’ll show you where I think where the cool kids are investing on the class spectrum. Remember the goal is to maximize the profit, which is the rent minus expenses (and the mortgage if you finance the property). Folks get wrapped around all these metrics, but do not forget the goal.
- This is totally my strategy, but please think for yourself: When I was getting started I went for the higher priced properties (Not the A properties cause there is no cashflow in there). I went for properties that rent for 1100 that I could get for 100K. I would say these were B+ properties (Note: do not take the seller’s definition). My strategy was to find low hassle properties that had better tenants and properties that I could easily liquidate because they were close to the median home. There is a bit contradiction here because yes, they were safer in terms of tenant quality and exit strategy, but the cashflow buffer was less, so I had less ability to lower rents in a market downturn. Now that I have a stronger base in terms of teams, money, and knowledge I try to go for more C properties because I feel I have the experience and risk tolerance for it (although I stated that these could be safer in terms of the buffer in the cashflow).
Goal: I am selling my home for 600k, and I want to invest out of state for cash flow at $200/month per door.
I think that the per door $200 assumption is in line. There is a difference if you are buying $60K properties or $120K properties but either way, I think you will be beating the averages of the stock market, and that is why I do what I do. One day I will make a video showing the math on the hidden benefits of owning rental real estate.
This is how it is going to work if you choose to sell and do a 1031 exchange. First, you sell the home for $600k (~10% will go to commissions, etc.), so you are left with $540K. This is how much you have to acquire, or there are tax penalties. Therefore, if you are looking at $90K properties, you are going to need to pick up 6 of them. Your cash in your 1031 will be $540k minus your remaining mortgage. You can bring cash out of pocket to make up any shortcomings. Check out this article for more info on some 1031 issues and strategies.
SPC Git Er’ Done Action Plan:
- If you’re not doing a 1031… You will need to do one in the future or you are just being silly by hoarding that equity. Today think about the possibility of this exit strategy as you purchase properties. For example, a lot of people talk about buying duplexes, triplexes, and quads, but when it’s time to sell, there is a fraction of possible buyers. And those possible buyers are all investors who are looking to get a deal.
I hope I’m not typecasting myself into just the turnkey or out-of-state hybrid (with agent assistance) dude. I see myself as an improving investor who does not know everything and building my network and experience to do bigger and better investments.
Questions from the Hopper:
- Are you visiting these locations at any frequency and for the initial purchases, or are you able to have enough trust and working relationship with other professional resources at those locations?
- I visited the team a year later in Birmingham and Atlanta
- I felt really comfortable and was nice to see that they were a legit business
- Is it really needed from a business perspective? $2-$4k is what you make a year and you’re going to spend $1000 on travel/time?
- Do it, if you need the warm and fuzzy feeling or going to buy a bunch of them. Do you go to New York and shake hands with the executives of your mutual fund and stock companies?
- Do you have any TK recommendations?
- Really? How lazy can you be, you need other to do your own due-diligence? You need to build a minimal level of People who ask these questions never follow through anyway. If you are that lazy find a referral person who will lead you to the “cave” and ditch your butt once they collect their referral fee.
- I don’t want to be held liable, things change
- I don’t care about the silly referral commission. I am looking to build investing peers to kick it in the future.
- Well I need to narrow down my markets and look at the data
- I see this as an excuse to dumpster dive in “technical-Hell”
- There are about 8 markets that have good robust economies (not Detroit) and Rent to Value ratios that support viable cashflowing investments. Here are some in no particular order:
- Kansas City
- Questionable on Dallas (lacks cashflow and more of appreciation play but I like it for apartments)
- NOT Arizona/Las Vegas (too volatile IMHO)
- Stand on the shoulders of giants!
- I don’t see much difference in Birmingham vs Atlanta other than $20 per month cashflow. Atlanta being more of an appreciation potential.
- I had a conversation with another investor the other day and he was really into optimizing the data to find the best market. The response I gave was it is like raising young kids
- picking the right market = deciding what the kids wear
- picking the right vendor/rehabber = help your kid pick the right friendships
Send you kid with some decent clothes and emphasize on picking the right friends. I don’t have kids so what do I know about anything.
- I update a little heat chart outlining what I think how markets perform with cashflow & appreciation. Email me [email protected] with “You name – TK Heat Chart Quadrant” in the subject line and screenshot of your iTunes review.
- Tenant grade materials. I hear you mention this a lot, no garbage disposal, laminate floors, etc.
- No garbage disposal (number one annoying fix I see)
- laminate floors
- no carpet
- no garage door
- no washing machine/dishwasher
- We want happy tenants but the Goal is the rent (use a 20% IRR rule as a starting point)
- I initially thought about Indy but wasn’t comfortable with the responsiveness of the TK I was talking to… so I backed off.
Remember these guys primarily rehab homes. It does not mean they are bad. Do you want to be paying for the extra bloat/overhead of someone to do sales all day long in the office?
- Wow, the proformas/Rent-to-value ratios in Chicago and Florida are off the charts!
- Always use your detailed spreadsheet to account for all costs and verify each line item
- Chicago has 3x taxes and anti-landlord
- Florida had 2x insurance
- 2% investor tax upcharge in Indy
- In my opinion, when you add these market nuances, it really normalizes all the markets. To me, they are all the same… it’s the team in place that means more (KPIs for you computer programmers out there).
- You talk about buying turnkeys three ways. Marketer, Hybrid w/ agent, and direct from the Turnkey Provider? What is the best?
Depends on your situation. A greener investor should go with a marketer or work with a mentor/agent. A more experienced investor can work directly. I personally switch between direct and with an agent.
- Do you prefer to stay with newer homes say 1990+ or 2000+ or are you ok with old homes 70’s 60’s as long as they are in good neighborhoods and have been rehabbed?
I prefer newer because that means you will have a newer curb appeal however those come with a bit higher price. So it’s unclear if it makes sense in terms of value (utility/cost). I don’t discriminate older homes (granted they are not functionally obsolete such as hallway type kitchens cause people today like open floor plans). Renters can’t be choosy but if you have an option in the beginning, choose well.
There is something to be said about an older home that is time tested and has got the kinks out. Don’t forget about capital expenditures. I have heard that certain eras (I am making this up but 1980-1985) have used superior materials than today and vice versa. I think it’s too tough to know this for a passive level because the differences vary so much between the decades and individual markets that it’s not worth creating a thesis on it.
- How do you manage your out of state properties? What kind of challenges are you facing there?
- All about managing via phone/email and keeping those accountable. Just like corporate America.
- Be firm and your leverage is to fire them and get someone new.
- I know I pay markups and could run it better myself because after all, “no one waxes your car better than yourself”
- Too many people have this old school mentality that they need to live near the rental and do everything. Read the E-Myth book and open your eyes. Don’t be a landlord, be an investor.
I bought my first Turnkey in 2013. Today with more and more stock market refugees the margins are getting smaller and smaller.
Just one HVAC going out guarantees that you will lose money (cashflow wise) that year for that property.
Review my article on the hidden ways you are making money with real estate. The cashflow is just the tip of the iceberg. Remember there are other ways you are making money and that is why it is worth the extra effort overstocks/mutual funds. But its not worth the extra stress if you are just flat out bad at this stuff.
I did not figure out how to do things until I got three or four of these things (overpaid by a few thousand each time) because I just did not know what the heck to do. But you cannot read your way through it. 70-20-10 rule where 70% is doing, 20 % is by peers/mentorship, and 10% is reading like this blog/podcasts.