Markets: Primary, Secondary, Tertiary, 4th…
Grades of Buildings: A, B, C, D, F’ed
Grades of Neighborhoods: A, B, C, D, F’ed
Markets: Primary, Secondary, Tertiary, 4th…
Grades of Buildings: A, B, C, D, F’ed
Grades of Neighborhoods: A, B, C, D, F’ed
Joey Noel Turn Key Rental Buddies Interview – Jeep Wranglers, Maxing out Fannie Mae Loans, Helocs, re-inspections, dating two property management companies at the same time, and what to be aware of when on BiggerPockets
Connie discusses grinding through Corporate America and how she dabbled in real estate. Then finding cashflow rentals and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
I hope I’m not typecasting myself into just the turnkey or out-of-state hybrid (with agent assistance) dude. I see myself as an improving investor who does not know everything and building my network and experience to do bigger and better investments.
Questions from the Hopper:
Send you kid with some decent clothes and emphasize on picking the right friends. I don’t have kids so what do I know about anything.
Remember these guys primarily rehab homes. It does not mean they are bad. Do you want to be paying for the extra bloat/overhead of someone to do sales all day long in the office?
Depends on your situation. A greener investor should go with a marketer or work with a mentor/agent. A more experienced investor can work directly. I personally switch between direct and with an agent.
I prefer newer because that means you will have a newer curb appeal however those come with a bit higher price. So it’s unclear if it makes sense in terms of value (utility/cost). I don’t discriminate older homes (granted they are not functionally obsolete such as hallway type kitchens cause people today like open floor plans). Renters can’t be choosy but if you have an option in the beginning, choose well.
There is something to be said about an older home that is time tested and has got the kinks out. Don’t forget about capital expenditures. I have heard that certain eras (I am making this up but 1980-1985) have used superior materials than today and vice versa. I think it’s too tough to know this for a passive level because the differences vary so much between the decades and individual markets that it’s not worth creating a thesis on it.
I bought my first Turnkey in 2013. Today with more and more stock market refugees the margins are getting smaller and smaller.
Just one HVAC going out guarantees that you will lose money (cashflow wise) that year for that property.
Review my article on the hidden ways you are making money with real estate. The cashflow is just the tip of the iceberg. Remember there are other ways you are making money and that is why it is worth the extra effort overstocks/mutual funds. But its not worth the extra stress if you are just flat out bad at this stuff.
I did not figure out how to do things until I got three or four of these things (overpaid by a few thousand each time) because I just did not know what the heck to do. But you cannot read your way through it. 70-20-10 rule where 70% is doing, 20 % is by peers/mentorship, and 10% is reading like this blog/podcasts.
Let me first say that what I do is nothing special. I know who to work with and have real relationships (heck I consider friendships) with people on my team but for the most part there is nothing special about me.
That brings up the *Time-Money-Experience* triangle. I know that there are a lot more experienced folks who have the ability to find 2-3% rent to value deals and do magical things. Again I have a full-time job that I make a good salary and I enjoy going to for the most part (I get free coffee there).
BiggerPockets is a great resource tool, however there is a nuance on the forums that I call the #BPBP Syndrome (the BiggerPockets Bi-Polar Syndrome). What I mean is that the vocal folks on the forums are very active saying and they can do much better deals. Real Estate is their job and they are damn good at it. I am a passive investor who has limited time to source screaming deals and just needs to place my money and quit screwing around on the sidelines. I believe folks like myself who are passive investors like myself are actually the (quiet) majority of folks on BiggerPockets.
What active and passive investors can all agree is that real estate is the best investment vehicle out there. What I love about it is that even when I buy these “lukewarm” deals I still reach my goals (4x) faster than the stock market.
If you are holding deals close to your chest or not giving to your so called competitors. You need to operate from an Abundance Mindset.
If I were starting out investing here are the Fab Four Books and Trifecta of Business Books that everyone should read before making a purchase:
It’s important to note that reading anymore is just overkill. Don’t be that ‘Shelf’-help guy or use the crux “oh I need to read and get more educated”. You need to step up and take action how many freaking books are you going to read? Many Fortune-500 Human Resources departments use the theory of 70-20-10 in developing employees which apply here. 70% is learned by doing, 20% learned from peers, and 10% is academic/book/classroom training.
Below is another rendition of the same theory. This also explains why after a few years of doing this podcast and helping others get started by modeling the way has accelerated my own growth.
Tim Ferris talks about the $100,000 MBA, where you don’t really go to school but you jump right in with your business/investment. This method may lead you to operate at a loss but you will have far more experience than getting that silly $100,000+ MBA degree from some brick and mortar school.
And a word on real estate training: Why would someone want to spend $20-30K on training when that alone is a down payment on a cashflowing property that you can learn through doing and make 300-400 a month cashflow. Heck, you could even buy an overpriced 2nd tier turnkey property and get your education that way too.
SPC GET ‘ER DONE PLAN:
Please note that some of the links found on this website are affiliate links. And at no additional cost to you, paid by the seller, I will earn a commission if you decide to purchase which helps pays for the various costs of running this website. Please understand that I have previously used these products. Do not feel the need to purchase these products but if you do please use these links. If you have any additional questions on how I optimize the use of these products please let me know.
Are you aware of Cap-Ex or Capital Expenses the big unknown in your deal analysis spreadsheet. Learn 3 ways to calculate Cap-Ex… So You Don’t Get Screwed a Year Into The Future
Blog article with all the charts. Sign up for the e-newsletter with your email to get the Cap-Ex spreadsheet.
A lot of people have been asking for an expose’ of the turnkey investing world, so and here it is. Remember, buying the property is only part of the battle, but efficient operation and systems are what make it work. So please subscribe for good times and stories with SimplePassiveCashflow.com!
Passive Versus Active Investing
Turnkey Investing Defined
Turnkey investing is a form of passive investing. The definition of turnkey (TK) investing at the very least is buying a property from a seller called the Turnkey Provider (TKP) that is rent ready. The TKP typically does a rehab of the major components (roof, floor, plumbing, electrical, paint with sturdy tenant grade materials, such as no carpet, no garbage disposals, laminate flooring. etc). The TKP may purchase these at a discount with a part of their company made up of wholesalers or auction buyers to buy the properties at a discount. Also, the TKP may have property management in-house to manage it for a fee after the sale is complete. The TKP may fill the property with a tenant prior to closing the sale – although this verifies the market rents, there is no safeguard that prevents the TKP to just sticking a warm body in there. A lot of buyers like the fact that the TKP is vertically integrated because if the property does not perform you know who to go after. I personally don’t see the advantage of having a vertically integrated TKP as a clear-cut benefit since it brings up the potential for conflicts of interest. For example, if the TKP has a property management side, the property management can cover up shortcomings in the rehab.
“Hey, property management Paul, why is my property getting these 100 dollar repairs like every month?”
“Well, I don’t know it was an excellent rehab (done by my company) so it must be that dang tenant again.” says Paul.
My opinion of “vertically integrated” is that they do everything but also suck at everything… Rather than having a jack of all trades, wouldn’t you want an ace at every position?
How Do I Buy?
In every market (say Birmingham) there are typically two TKPs who are perennial good outfits. And that third TKP seat is constantly being indicted by some sort of FBI investigation… I’m just being funny. But this is where things get tricky from an outsider’s perspective. Who are the good guys and who are the fly by night operations? Good question! My best answer is to use references of disinterested parties – which are different from the uninterested friends/family/negative Nancy’s/nervous Ned’s.
Out of this pain-point, a middle-man layer called the “marketers” have arisen. These are the guys who typically do not live in the local market (most likely California) but do a good job at finding most of the reputable sellers. The marketers put on Meet-ups, podcasts, webinars, troll BiggerPockets, and find buyers who are looking for real estate in their portfolio. The trouble is, they are not doing these services for free, and you as the buyer will pay for it via a markup to the property one way or another. But overall the system works well. The TKP (small company) is good at what they do and are able to focus on finding distressed property and rehabbing. The TKP utilizes the Marketer to sell the inventory and create a profitable business based on volume.
There are some very reputable TKPs out there, but the trouble is sometimes they have so much demand for their product they can charge their buyers (you) a premium price. Pair this with the marketers bringing in lazy money in the form of inexperienced investor itching to get into real estate creates a micro sellers market. Some TKPs have buyer queues where you wait for a property and you have a limited amount to time to buy it or it gets moved on (to the next sucker). These scarce sales tactics are not a place you want to be. Another trick is that a TKP may require you pay cash for a property which basically takes away your ability to do your due-diligence on the property. I always buy with an appraisal contingency and inspection contingency to protect myself. Some will offer guaranteed rents or warranties which are seemingly good but could also mean that the TKP is just buying a $500/year insurance policy so you buy their property and they plan on just using the outside insurance to pay your inevitable claim. I’m going to stop there before I scare folks too much, but these are some of the pitfalls of working directly with the TKP seller (after all Real Estate is their profession).
A lot of folks jump on BiggerPockets and search or post on “Turnkey” and they will get bombarded by vendors being super helpful. I don’t know about you but I have never gone to the bar and been given free beers by other helpful patrons. Well if that’s the feeling you’re getting when you networking on BiggerPockets, make sure you background check who you’re direct messaging with. How are they getting paid? The folks you want to listen to (yes actually have rentals) and merely want to help out another Bro. I’ve used a marketer before but I did not get any value and I will not do it again, especially since it is not hard to find all the reputable sellers with a little bit of digging.
I mentioned two ways to buy a TK (TKP and Marketer) that both have their pros and cons. A third hybrid method that I have employed is to work with a licensed agent that helps you source properties and find your own construction crews to rehab the property. I have mixed opinions about this because it is a bit more work (especially being remote) and the agent is typically ignorant to what components make a good rental. An agent can find you a property that is priced well, however, they will not have the knowledge that an experienced rehabber or TKP will have (sturdy tenant grade materials such as no carpet, no garbage disposals, laminate flooring). So it’s a bit more risk/reward in the end if that’s your cup of tea or should I say Simple Passive Cashflow Latte. What has worked for me is not going with a marketer (due to absurd markup), but using a combination of off-market agents that have a Fiduciary responsibility to represent me and also working directly with the TKP for the best pricing once I had the experience of purchasing 3-5 properties and overpaying along the way.
Why the heck doesn’t the TKP just hold on to the property for themselves?
As stated earlier, the TKP does what they do well. They have the teams and market knowledge to do this efficiently. They could hold on the property but they have chosen to make profits on the volume business since they make their money by managing their multiple crews, essentially they are running a business. If you find a good TKP hopefully you get to partake in some of these efficiencies. But don’t be entitled as a TK buyer. You are not doing any work and frankly you deserve the market rate.
Which class, property value range, would be best to put on the buying list?
This is ultimately up to your investing strategy and criteria. For me to tell you what is the best is irresponsible and against what I believe because you should understand the macro (not micro) concepts for yourself and make your own best individual strategy. With that disclaimer out of the way, I personally went (my strategy changes per my overall portfolio) after B/B+ properties that rented for at least $1000 per month and had at least 3 bed and 2 bath. Some things to think of when finding your strategy/criteria:
I am selling my home for 600k, I want to invest out of state for cash flow 200/month cash each door?
Before you do anything make sure TK investing is for you don’t just jump in cause I like it. However, I think that your per door $200 assumption is in line. There is a difference if you are buying $60K properties or $120K properties but either way, I think you will be beating the averages of the stock market and that is why I do what I do.
This is how it is going to work if you choose to sell and do a 1031 exchange. First, you sell the home for $600k (~10% will go to commissions etc) so you are left with $540K. This is how much you have to acquire or there are tax penalties so if you are looking at $90K properties you are going to need to pick up 6 of them. Your cash in your 1031 will be $540k minus your remaining mortgage. You can bring cash out of pocket to make up any shortcomings. Check out this article for more info on some 1031 issues and strategies.
Other Passive Investing options (REITS & Crowdfunding):
Passive turnkey (TK) investing is a slow way to building long term wealth. My track record in the macro sense is to put down $30K to control a $100K property that rents for a tad over $1000 a month. From that $30K down, I create about $200-300 a month in cashflow or $3000 a year per property. If those of you at home are plotting the day when you leave your job and take over the world, 20 homes would get you about $60K in passive income a year (tax-free) which would require about $300k of down payments.
A lot of smart people dabble in REITs or Crowdfunding deals, but typically it is the operator taking most of the profits off the top. Ideally, if you have the ability to, you want to be in control and be the operator if the numbers make sense. REITs and Crowdfunding deals are just like stock/mutual funds- you do not own the hard asset, and you are at the mercy of the operator to run it like a business and not take business trips to Las Vegas “Conventions” as a business expense. Moreover, most of the time, you also miss out on the tax benefits, such as depreciation. Isn’t this the reason why you want out of the stock/mutual funds in the first place? Plus who the heck knows how Stocks are priced? As if that wasn’t enough, most crowdfunding platforms (at least for now) require that you be an accredited investor. Most of you starting out won’t qualify.
Here are a few of links with actual portfolio analysis of these Crowdfunding methods in action:
Why go through all this trouble of a rental?
As in the above Crowdfunding links, the returns range from 6-12%. These returns suck. I mean it’s good for an institutional investor or someone with a gazillion dollars, however, I look for cash-on-cash returns of ~10% and total gains, or IRR (Internal Rate of Return), of ~20-40% per year.
For my info on total gains see this article: How We Make Money with Real Estate & the Hidden Returns
Here are some questions I often receive from readers:
I could do that, but that would be doing you a huge disservice because you will not be properly educated. Use these people as your educators.
Here is what I would do:
Find at least 6-10 turnkey dealers via googling turnkey rentals. You can also look online at Bigger Pockets, as many, though not all, turnkey companies have a presence there. Call each and every one of them, and get a dialogue going. Then, ask them the following questions (but not all of them… don’t be a machine, build a relationship:
Why Screw Around with Rental Real Estate when I can just do REITS and those really cool crowdfunding sites?
The Biggest Kept Secret – Hidden Returns of Rental Real Estate
SPC Git Er’ Done Action Plan:
When I am looking at potential investment properties the rent-to-value ratio is the very first metric I look at with evaluating an investment. To calculate this metric you take the monthly rent divided by the purchase price/value. For example a home that rents for $1000/month that costs $100,000 has a rent to value ratio of 1% (1,000/100,000=1%). The higher the better. I typically look at a huge list of properties so using excel to make this calculation is the best practice. It’s sort of like using the dating app Tinder… but with a filter…. I’ll stop there… you get the point, a lot of options, how do you best narrow them down. In the spreadsheet if you are so inclined to use conditional formatting or spark charts to flag the best ratio values… well, no wonder you are bored at your day job. If you create a bunch of Macros to do this, wake up! You are seriously being underutilized in this world.
I actually don’t care about how many bedrooms, square footage, if it’s Victorian era, made out of bricks, in a hurricane zone, or if Heath Ledger grew up there. I’m not interested in any of it yet because I am just checking out if it hits the numbers first. Dummy Alert: Just because it meets the 1% threshold does not mean you have a winner. For example, I can find homes all day that is $50k and rent for $800. You’re probably thinking “Wow, that’s so rad it has an (800/50k) 1.6%+ Rent to value ratio”. But in reality, those homes typically have lower quality tenants who screw up the property and have more vacancy. In some places, you might have to carry a gun to pick up the rent. I personally like to find properties that are right in that 1% zone but are also the most expensive (highest class), e.g. a $145k property that rents for $1400/month.
There are similar metrics such as the Cap Rate or Gross Rent Multiplier, but these are typically not used in the non-commercial realm of Single Family Rentals. Using such vernacular can tip you off to an agent that you are either inexperienced or European… not that anything is wrong with being European except they do things ass-backwards like the whole Kilograms thing and drinking pints. ‘Merica! This is also an indicator for you that you are working with an inexperienced agent or one that is coming from the commercial world trying to “get rid of a few SFHs” as a side-gig. I am no one’s side-gig!
Figure: General Rent to Value Ratios w/ Classes in top Cashflow Markets
Note: Monthly Rents on vertical, Home Value on horizontal: Varies by market, this is simply to illustrate that this line is not straight
Nuances to recognize:
SPC GET ‘ER DONE PLAN